[Suggestion] Introduce A Stall Database

[vijackie]

Hey guys I've always had this in my mind and I'm sure you probably have thought of it as well.

Would it be possible to build a live stall database? For example: if you've played Maplestory there's this website called maple.fm which lists all the current stands and their contents(item descriptions, prices, etc).

Of course it's easier said than done and I've definitely no knowledge on this type of coding, but what will it take?

I believe this would greatly increase the economic environment in PKO. This is because players can find their desired item--if it's in a stall-- within seconds,purchase it quickly, and save plenty of time.

It would also encourage players to stall more(albeit there are plenty already) knowing that their items will be seen--if anyone really needs them.

And finally it would perhaps give rise to a stable economy. What I mean by this is: prices will be consistent amongst all players. And I believe this because everyone would be able to see the highest-lowest prices for themselves and determine whether or not it is a rip off or just the right price.

Let me know what you think guys,
Thanks

 

[Zankza]

we have discussed about this before internally and ultimately went against it, it works only against really very massive player base otherwise it kills the whole excitement and game-playing of being creative with your stall points/title.

 

[Spidpex]

Idk, i just always loved to lurk around, watching stalls, just seeing what people sell casually, it makes me relaxed

 

[vijackie]

we have discussed about this before internally and ultimately went against it, it works only against really very massive player base otherwise it kills the whole excitement and game-playing of being creative with your stall points/title.

Perhaps you're right, maybe it may be too much hassle to develop just for a player base below one thousand, but I definitely wouldn't use stall points(life skill points) or creative titles as a counter argument.

 

[lifeas]

While this would make finding items easier this would also defeat the purpose of putting effort in to finding/ reserving a good stall location.

 

[vijackie]

it works only against really very massive player base

I take back the statement I said earlier about it being not worth it to develop this database for just a player-base below one thousand. The number may seem low, especially compared to other games, but the server is full of stalls and I can't see the ground anymore to be frank. This is the game we have folks, and there's a reason there were several servers in official. One thousand people in a server looks like mayhem. For one server--especially a private server in itself(perhaps the biggest TOP private server now)--one thousand people is definitely crowded. In terms of stalling in the three cities of course.

While this would make finding items easier this would also defeat the purpose of putting effort in to finding/ reserving a good stall location.

Now, I don't understand your good stall location argument. There is no effort put into it, and there is no finding either. We've played this game for years and we already know what spots players frequent the most. And wouldn't you want to know that you have a chance to sell something if people want to search and buy for it? Why should the players who don't afk 24 hours a day in this game be punished with bad stall locations?

For a game that relies--not only financially, but also economically (in terms of items that cannot be obtained anywhere else)--on its players purchasing from the item mall, wouldn't it be the best idea to introduce such a thing? In fact, wouldn't it encourage more spending in the item mall?

If I know the real money or amount of rum something costs from the item mall, wouldn't I want to immediately know the price of such an item in game? If I want to buy one thousand rums just for the purpose of selling, then wouldn't I want to create my own notepad, or excel spreadsheet of the different ways I can sell different items. And a database will help immensely with this. And I know one guy who would feel like its Christmas for him, one particular guy in the Crus forums.

 

[lifeas]

Now, I don't understand your good stall location argument. There is no effort put into it, and there is no finding either.

So after maintenance I put in effort to wake up and log on and open a stall to sell potions in a popular spot. Someone logs on a few hours later selling the same items as me except their stall is a bit further away. From experience I sell more then them, even though my prices are usually a fair bit higher.

Like you said everyone knows where the popular spots are, they probably don't even have to look up the location, it's the stall naming, a bit of luck and placement that can make all the difference to which stall buys look at > buy from. Might sound trivial but I've experienced it alot having to compete with others selling the same items.

 

[vijackie]

So after maintenance I put in effort to wake up and log on and open a stall to sell potions in a popular spot. Someone logs on a few hours later selling the same items as me except their stall is a bit further away. From experience I sell more then them, even though my prices are usually a fair bit higher.

Like you said everyone knows where the popular spots are, they probably don't even have to look up the location, it's the stall naming, a bit of luck and placement that can make all the difference to which stall buys look at > buy from. Might sound trivial but I've experienced it alot having to compete with others selling the same items.

It's nice that you can stay up for so long and wait until maintenance is done so that you can get a stall. But like I said this is a game where a lot of people spend money, and I hope they aren't using their mom's credit card, it is much more possible that they have work, school, and other important things to do in their lives. It's interesting to me that you're not backing me up--which is your decision and is 100% reasonable--on something that would benefit a large portion of the community. But rather, you argue for the selfish players; the very same who want to grab the popular spots and send others away who sell the same items.

So after maintenance I put in effort to wake up and log on and open a stall to sell potions in a popular spot.

The prices of consumables, scrolls, miscellaneous items are probably the least of everyones' concerns. What about the prices of armors and weapons with different varying gems, sockets, strengthening, apparels? There are so many combinations one can put into making an item: Depending on the cost of the apparel, type of gem, number of sockets, strengthening %. A database will make it clear to see the prices, and it would make it clear for players to determine--accurately--for themselves if the examined item is worth what it should be worth.

Honestly, I don't see how the argument of good stall locations for a few players can completely null the benefits for the whole community if a database was introduced. And think about the newer players who don't know anything about the game too.

 

[lifeas]

It's nice that you can stay up for so long and wait until maintenance is done so that you can get a stall. But like I said this is a game where a lot of people spend money, and I hope they aren't using their mom's credit card, it is much more possible that they have work, school, and other important things to do in their lives. It's interesting to me that you're not backing me up--which is your decision and is 100% reasonable--on something that would benefit a large portion of the community. But rather, you argue for the selfish players; the very same who want to grab the popular spots and send others away who sell the same items.

Honestly, I don't see how good stall locations for a few players can completely null the benefits for the whole community--and especially the newer players.

Would it though, would it benefit the greater good? Players work hard to farm items to sell. A database would devalue their items as everyone undercuts each other trying to come up as the first result in that list. One could argue you are siding with those who already have the currency (from whatever means) and only care about how cheap they can get items Vs those actually doing manu and cooking for currency.

At the hair dresser there's a player who stalls the same items as me but for 10k over my price, and even though I'm 2 inches away he always end up selling more then me. The fact is he did the yards to secure a good location, I don't think he was selfish, and I have no problems with it.

 

[Leba]

It's nice that you can stay up for so long and wait until maintenance is done so that you can get a stall. But like I said this is a game where a lot of people spend money, and I hope they aren't using their mom's credit card, it is much more possible that they have work, school, and other important things to do in their lives. It's interesting to me that you're not backing me up--which is your decision and is 100% reasonable--on something that would benefit a large portion of the community. But rather, you argue for the selfish players; the very same who want to grab the popular spots and send others away who sell the same items.

Honestly, I don't see how good stall locations for a few players can completely null the benefits for the whole community--and especially the newer players.

To me a stall database would feel kind of lazy. I agree that walking around Argent, CA portal, Shaitan Dock or any other place which makes your eyes bleed and look through stalls isn't exactly fun or something which should be "promoted", it is something that is more-less rewarding. Not only do you get valuable information on how cheap you can find certain items and from which sellers you could possibly buy the cheapest, you also have a chance of finding cheaper items when you're looking for them.
i.e. you could just open the first stall with Ratz and buy those without much effort, but you could walk the extra mile and spend some minutes looking around the whole Argent for stall titled "RATZ" and ultimately save some money.

As much as a stall database would be fancy to have around, I think that any advantage you want to get should have some effort put into it. Just my 2 cents.
Also as @lifeas said, people who pick good stall spots tend to sell more. And that's okay, those items are usually sold to players who don't want to bother walking around and finding them cheaper.

 

[lifeas]

It's nice that you can stay up for so long and wait until maintenance is done so that you can get a stall. But like I said this is a game where a lot of people spend money, and I hope they aren't using their mom's credit card, it is much more possible that they have work, school, and other important things to do in their lives. It's interesting to me that you're not backing me up--which is your decision and is 100% reasonable--on something that would benefit a large portion of the community. But rather, you argue for the selfish players; the very same who want to grab the popular spots and send others away who sell the same items.



The prices of consumables, scrolls, miscellaneous items are probably the least of everyones' concerns. What about the prices of armors and weapons with different varying gems, sockets, strengthening, apparels? There are so many combinations one can put into making an item: Depending on the cost of the apparel, type of gem, number of sockets, strengthening %. A database will make it clear to see the prices, and it would make it clear for players to determine--accurately--for themselves if the examined item is worth what it should be worth.

Honestly, I don't see how the argument of good stall locations for a few players can completely null the benefits for the whole community if a database was introduced. And think about the newer players who don't know anything about the game too.

Look at it this way, I'm a newbie who has just entered the game. Someone tells me oh you can sell ship ACC for 3k each. 'Great' I think and go off to Manu ship acc's because I'm too low with no items to farm any mazes (if I even had knowledge of mazes). Then I come around to selling them, it turns out because players keep lowering the price I can't actually sell them at 3k. If I had a good spot I would at least have a chance to sell them for 3k- people would see my stall first because of good placement, go, yeah I'm willing to pay that much and just purchase the item. With a DB they would always just go to the lowest price sellers and I would be forced to lower my price to compete. And let's meet honest newer players are the ones that make most of their money that way. When I first started I was selling over priced blueprints to rich players for currency, that wouldn't have worked if there was a DB robbing me of that opportunity.

 

[vijackie]

Would it though, would it benefit the greater good? Players work hard to farm items to sell. A database would devalue their items as everyone undercuts each other trying to come up as the first result in that list. One could argue you are siding with those who already have the currency (from whatever means) to buy and aren't earning it the slow way like manu etc.

At the hair dresser there's a player who stalls the same items as me but for 10k over my price, and even though I'm 2 inches away he always end up selling more then me. The fact is he did the yards to secure a good location, I don't think he was selfish, and I have no problems with it.

First of all, being first on a database list would mean that there is currently no one else selling that item. Must be a rare item. Great! Sell it for your price, a stall database wouldn't take away from this. But if you would somehow--possibly after a maintenance--be the first to post a ref gem for a price to your liking, then you may sell it or you may not. A database will eventually stabilize the economy so that prices aren't fluctuating and far off from each other.

If I had a good spot I would at least have a chance to sell them for 3k- people would see me stall go, yeah I'm willing to pay that much and just purchase the item. With a DB they would always just go to the lowest price sellers.

I see your argument here: players will constantly lower the prices so that they may sell their items fast. But look at it this way and this is what I think:
1.
Often times we overestimate numbers in our heads. How many other people could their really be selling the same items as you? If there are a few, and if the demand is high then their items will sell-- especially if they are cheaper than yours. But look, if that person's items sell quickly then demand is high, you don't have to change your prices at all--you will eventually sell those items. If demand is low and the stall right next to you that is in a better spot and is cheaper isnt selling, then that's not the database's fault.

2.
As I said before, not every item is a consumable. There are weapons and armors of varying attributes that can affect pricing drastically. If some guys tries to sell a BoI fork slightly cheaper than me so that he may sell it quicker, great for him! People will see that and be attracted to buy it even more. People will know the true value of that item (by knowing the prices of refs, sockets, etc) via the database and know that my price is still reasonable. So I am not left in the dark here.

3.
Everyone is similar, they want to make money. But how could that possibly be if they are constantly undercutting my prices? Well here's my theory.
It's all the same, if someone undercuts refs, AND if those prices stay that way, then the prices of weapons and armors will definitely also decrease.

I just want this game to have a pricing range that is consistent between its most popular items. Of course if you farm a crazy fc boot or glove that has insane stats, then that price is up to you!

 

[lifeas]

First of all, being first on a database list would mean that there is currently no one else selling that item. Must be a rare item. Great! Sell it for your price, a stall database wouldn't take away from this. But if you would somehow--possibly after a maintenance--be the first to post a ref gem for a price to your liking, then you may sell it or you may not. A database will eventually stabilize the economy so that prices aren't fluctuating and far off from each other.



I see your argument here: players will constantly lower the prices so that they may sell their items fast. But look at it this way and this is what I think:
1.
Often times we overestimate numbers in our heads. How many other people could their really be selling the same items as you? If there are a few, then if the demand is high their items will sell if they are cheaper than yours--of course! But look if that person's items sell quickly then demand is high, you don't have to change your prices at all--you will eventually sell those items. If demand is low and the stall right next to you that is in a better spot and is cheaper isnt selling, then that's not the database's fault.

2.
As I said before, not every item is a consumable. There are weapons and armors of varying attributes that can affect pricing drastically. If some guys tries to sell a BoI fork slightly cheaper than me so that he may sell it quicker, great for him! People will see that and be attracted to buy it even more. People will know the true value of that item (by knowing the prices of refs, sockets, etc via the database) and know that my price is still reasonable. So I am not left in the dark here.

3.
Everyone is similar, they want to make money. But how could that possibly be if they are constantly undercutting my prices? Well here's my theory.
It's all the same, if someone undercuts refs, AND if those prices stay that way, then the prices of weapons and armors will definitely also decrease.

I just want this game to have a pricing range between its most popular items. Of course if you farm a crazy fc boot or glove that has insane stats, then that price is up to you!

In theory, yes I can agree with thah, but in practice, you have auto magma players flogging off stacks of NSS and they can afford to do so at a lower price, and their supply will never run out. Players who farm those manually can't afford to keep up and it will effect their prices.

Stalls are innocuous, no one knows exactly prices so there's room to bounce around, those FC players might get to stall their ref for 450k instead of being forced to stall for 390k to be able to sell their items. Once you state all prices on a single page the economy starts to shift more dramatically and some in the right position can start to effect it heavily.

E.g. One person stalls their paw for 30m which sells, suddenly everyone stalls theirs for 30m. If it wasn't obvious or 'vocalised' so to speak the market would be subject to such egregious fluctuations.

 

[vijackie]

In theory, yes I can agree with thah, but in practice, you have auto magma players flogging off stacks of NSS and they can afford to do so at a lower price, and their supply will never run out. Players who farm those manually can't afford to keep up and it will effect their prices.

That's already another issue. A DB has nothing to do with the way botters are being dealt with. I wouldn't necessarily agree with you about botters changing the prices of their own items, why would they?
I don't know the efficacy of NSS botting but I'm assuming it isn't too dramatic. If these guys are waking up everyday with 20 stacks of NSS in their inventory, then yes they will lower prices to sell them quicker to avoid inventory clogging. But If they've only one or two stacks, prices won't change.
Interesting point nonetheless.

 

[lifeas]

That's already another issue. A DB has nothing to do with the way botters are being dealt with. I wouldn't necessarily agree with you about botters changing the prices of their own items, why would they?
I don't know the efficacy of NSS botting but I'm assuming it isn't too dramatic. If these guys are waking up everyday with 20 stacks of NSS in their inventory, then yes they will lower prices to sell them quicker to avoid inventory clogging. But If they've only one or two stacks, prices won't change.
Interesting point nonetheless.

It's a point that can be extrapolated to multiple items, the prices of refs fell because the supply exceeded the demand. A guild with a a constant stream of refs can keep dictating and effecting prices since they can supply more the the demand.

Maybe a fairer solution you are looking for is to list locations of items but not the prices.

 

[vijackie]

It's a point that can be extrapolated to multiple items, the prices of refs fell because the supply exceeded the demand. A guild with a a constant stream of refs can keep dictating and effecting prices since they can supply more the the demand.

Maybe a fairer solution you are looking for is to list locations of items but not the prices.

Don't think that has anything to do with a database. If a guild is a ref gem bank then that's not the database's fault, its probably a maze balancing issue (heard FC is dead). With a DB or not, their ref gem prices will possibly stabilize if these guys own every stall that has a ref gem--and that's unlikely. Thinking of what I said earlier though, sometimes we overestimate numbers in our heads.

 

[Developer]

Some old games like MapleStory and Ragnarok Online had network level bot applications that where walking around each mass markets and recorded data.
This is how it was done.

We did put a set of API functions to make such mod. But so far, it has low priority and calculations shown that server is not yet mature for such a feature.

 

[LutfiAzmi]

Idk, i just always loved to lurk around, watching stalls, just seeing what people sell casually, it makes me relaxed

cause u have nothing to do. walking. pvp. bar. thats ur life spidex xD